Re: [xsl] [Ann] Oxygen XML Editor version 23 release
2020-11-23 23:58:47
Hi all,
Thank you all for your feedback, it is really helpful!
I want to clarify some things from the oXygen perspective:
* We never considered removing XSLT 1.0 support in oXygen.
* We did not remove any processors, we just marked some very old ones as
"deprecated".
This will increase the chances of new oXygen and XSLT users to choose a
newer engine when they try XSLT for the first time.
It will help also our support - if an issue is found in a processor that
we include in oXygen, in many situations we did more than just to report
the issue to the original project, we investigate it to understand the
problem, try to fix it and send patches, and sometimes apply patches on
our side. Marking something as "deprecated" allows us to avoid
supporting these engines at this level, because it sets correctly the
expectation for our users.
We surely do not want to remove processors that our users still use and
need, but we do not have many ways available to get this information.
Marking something deprecated helps people to react and let us know that
they are still using those processors - what just happened here :).
Best Regards,
George
--
George Cristian Bina
<oXygen/> XML Editor, Schema Editor and XSLT Editor/Debugger
http://www.oxygenxml.com
On 11/23/20 11:57 PM, Wendell Piez wapiez(_at_)wendellpiez(_dot_)com wrote:
Hi,
I agree with all the disagreements so far.
To return to the beginning of the thread, it seems fair to say that
there is a reasonable use case for oXygen in continuing to maintain XSLT
1.0 support alongside with XSLT 2.0, for the sake both of crusty old
systems and their maintainers who do not wish to be pushed into Visual
Studio, and perhaps for easing their migration pathway into
industrial-grade XSLT in future.
Indeed it seems to me oXygen already has almost everything you would
need to set up the regression testing that Mike reminds us is incredibly
useful if not indispensable for sane sensible system maintenance or
migration - and having set up your testing for 1.0 you can test your 3.0
system alongside it, like Liam's French power company. Maybe put them
into a git repo so your parallel power systems live safely in the cloud.
To add a story to one of Norm's remarks, it must have been almost 40
years ago that my uncle, who designed APIs for IBM at the time, once
showed me an XT box sitting open on a bed, its guts exposed. He pointed
to a sizable PCI board plugged into the chassis and asked me what I
thought it was. To my blank look, he said "IBM 360".
I don't know if they still use boards or chips today (this was in the
era of the XT): maybe it's all emulators?
This also goes to Norm's point of course. Some kinds of technology get
baked in to the point where their support in effect becomes indefinite.
However, the IBM 360 was IBM IP (wasn't it?) and who knows where the
emulators stand. (Lawyers.) With no built-in revenue model around XSLT
itself, it's more difficult for an XSLT industry to sustain itself.
(Mike's point.)
However, without free and open alternatives to proprietary stacks and
lock-in, no open technology stands a chance, however "standard". For
example, it might be doubted whether there would be even the demand
there is today for XSLT 3.0, had we not all along had a healthy
commodity ecosystem implementing the 1.0 generation and giving us
success stories to build on.
With its rather free-form type system, XSLT/XPath 1.0 is also in my view
conceptually lightweight compared to 2.0+, which gives it certain kinds
of advantages for certain purposes. It may shock you, but I have even
heard XSLT developers refer to "good old 1.0". Without irony! or anyway
that kind.
Cheers, Wendell
On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 2:44 PM Michael Kay mike(_at_)saxonica(_dot_)com
<mailto:mike(_at_)saxonica(_dot_)com> <xsl-list-service(_at_)lists(_dot_)mulberrytech(_dot_)com
<mailto:xsl-list-service(_at_)lists(_dot_)mulberrytech(_dot_)com>> wrote:
AND, there are things tool vendors can to do make updating easier.
For example, providing guidance on how to "fix" things that
"break" in such an upgrade.
I've recently been trying to help a Saxon user who's managed to get
about 10 major releases behind, and it isn't pretty. Most of the
things we do to ease upgrade, like keeping things deprecated for a
release or two before they are withdrawn, don't work in that
situation. Their worst problem though is that they don't have a
decent set of regression tests so they just don't know whether their
upgrade has been successful or not. That plus the fact that if you
close your eyes for ten years and then open them up again, the world
is a different place and you're completely disoriented.
I'm afraid the more people get out of the habit of paying real money
for the software they use, the less the amount of investment that
goes into such luxuries. Even when users are paying, $500 doesn't
buy you much support.
It's sad how very little of the value that the user community has
got from good XSLT processors has been fed back to the developers to
produce better XSLT processors.
Michael Kay
Saxonica
XSL-List info and archive <http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list>
EasyUnsubscribe
<http://lists.mulberrytech.com/unsub/xsl-list/174322> (by email)
--
...Wendell Piez... ...wendell -at- nist -dot- gov...
...wendellpiez.com... ...pellucidliterature.org... ...pausepress.org...
...github.com/wendellpiez. <http://github.com/wendellpiez.>..
...gitlab.coko.foundation/wendell...
XSL-List info and archive <http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list>
EasyUnsubscribe <http://lists.mulberrytech.com/unsub/xsl-list/634597>
(by email <>)
--~----------------------------------------------------------------
XSL-List info and archive: http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list
EasyUnsubscribe: http://lists.mulberrytech.com/unsub/xsl-list/1167547
or by email: xsl-list-unsub(_at_)lists(_dot_)mulberrytech(_dot_)com
--~--
<Prev in Thread] |
Current Thread |
[Next in Thread>
|
- Re: [xsl] [Ann] Oxygen XML Editor version 23 release, (continued)
- Re: [xsl] [Ann] Oxygen XML Editor version 23 release, Geert Bormans geert(_at_)gbormans(_dot_)telenet(_dot_)be
- Re: [xsl] [Ann] Oxygen XML Editor version 23 release, Willem Van Lishout willemvanlishout(_at_)gmail(_dot_)com
- Re: [xsl] [Ann] Oxygen XML Editor version 23 release, Geert Bormans geert(_at_)gbormans(_dot_)telenet(_dot_)be
- Re: [xsl] [Ann] Oxygen XML Editor version 23 release, B Tommie Usdin btusdin(_at_)mulberrytech(_dot_)com
- Re: [xsl] [Ann] Oxygen XML Editor version 23 release, Wegmann, Frank frank(_dot_)wegmann(_at_)softwareag(_dot_)com
- Re: [xsl] [Ann] Oxygen XML Editor version 23 release, Michael Kay mike(_at_)saxonica(_dot_)com
- Re: [xsl] [Ann] Oxygen XML Editor version 23 release, B Tommie Usdin btusdin(_at_)mulberrytech(_dot_)com
- Re: [xsl] [Ann] Oxygen XML Editor version 23 release, Norm Tovey-Walsh ndw(_at_)nwalsh(_dot_)com
- Re: [xsl] [Ann] Oxygen XML Editor version 23 release, Michael Kay mike(_at_)saxonica(_dot_)com
- Re: [xsl] [Ann] Oxygen XML Editor version 23 release, Wendell Piez wapiez(_at_)wendellpiez(_dot_)com
- Re: [xsl] [Ann] Oxygen XML Editor version 23 release,
George Bina george(_at_)oxygenxml(_dot_)com <=
- Re: [xsl] [Ann] Oxygen XML Editor version 23 release, Eliot Kimber ekimber(_at_)contrext(_dot_)com
- Re: [xsl] [Ann] Oxygen XML Editor version 23 release, Damian Morris damian(_at_)moso(_dot_)com(_dot_)au
- Re: [xsl] [Ann] Oxygen XML Editor version 23 release, Liam R. E. Quin liam(_at_)fromoldbooks(_dot_)org
- Re: [xsl] [Ann] Oxygen XML Editor version 23 release, Damian Morris damian(_at_)moso(_dot_)com(_dot_)au
- Re: [xsl] [Ann] Oxygen XML Editor version 23 release, Dimitre Novatchev dnovatchev(_at_)gmail(_dot_)com
- Re: [xsl] [Ann] Oxygen XML Editor version 23 release, Octavian Nadolu octavian_nadolu(_at_)sync(_dot_)ro
- Re: [xsl] [Ann] Oxygen XML Editor version 23 release, B Tommie Usdin btusdin(_at_)mulberrytech(_dot_)com
- Re: [xsl] [Ann] Oxygen XML Editor version 23 release, Octavian Nadolu octavian_nadolu(_at_)sync(_dot_)ro
- MORE Re: [xsl] [Ann] Oxygen XML Editor version 23 release, B Tommie Usdin btusdin(_at_)mulberrytech(_dot_)com
- Re: MORE Re: [xsl] [Ann] Oxygen XML Editor version 23 release, Wayne Brissette wbrisett(_at_)att(_dot_)net
|
|
|