ietf-asrg
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Re: [Asrg] "more readable"

2003-06-21 18:29:43
On Sat, 21 Jun 2003, Kee Hinckley <nazgul(_at_)somewhere(_dot_)com> wrote:
At 6:12 PM -0500 6/20/03, gep2(_at_)terabites(_dot_)com wrote:
I think you ought to let the READER be the judge of what the READER finds the
most readable... based on THEIR screen, THEIR vision, THEIR color preferences,
THEIR screen resolution, etc etc.

This battle was fought and lost with HTML web sites.  Why do you 
think you'll have any more luck winning it with email?

Well, ONE difference is that a Web site is for the most part a public posting, 
which people have the right to visit or not visit as they choose, but at THEIR 
option.  The Web site is designed (and paid for) by the person posting it.  A 
Web site is normally made available without knowing in advance who might or 
might not someday come to view it.

E-mail, on the other hand, uses an inbox (of limited size, thus at least for 
some a 'scarce resrouce') paid for by the recipient.  While made available by 
the recipient for the convenience of others, the sender of the E-mail usually 
knows (of, at least) the people who will be receiving the mail.  There is 
generally a more direct relationship (other than in spamming, of course).

It's really like the difference between announcing an open public meeting 
somewhere to make a presentation, versus knocking on the door to someone's home 
to make the presentation at their house.  If you're making the presentation to 
them personally, you should normally expect to go to greater pains to respect 
the wishes of the people who are personally giving you their time and attention.

99.9% of the people sending email really don't care.  Actually, I'd 
put it stronger than that.  When they make a document on the screen, 
they want it to appear the same way on the printer.  

HTML is not, and has never been, a precise or deterministic page layout 
language.  Postscript, TeX, and other schemes are [FAR!] better at that.

While obviously I can't prevent people from confusing that issue, I also don't 
take responsibility for their trying to turn HTML into something it's really 
not.  And I don't have to allow them to waste _my_ resources in their 
associated, [foolhardy!] attempt.

The issue, anyhow, isn't really whether people should or shouldn't use 
HTML-burdened E-mail... obviously, some people can (and do) send anything they 
could possibly want in their outgoing E-mails.  The issue before THIS group is 
whether we might encourage ISPs to provide filtering options to their 
subscribers which return control of the subscribers' E-mail inboxes to the 
subscribers, or if we leave them to continue to be victimized by spammers, 
fraudsters, and other abusers.

My observation is that spammers as a class are far more likely to use (and 
abuse) the various oddball things in HTML in their attempts to deceive, 
defraud, 
mislead, and confuse their victims.  Since the MOST universal (and safest!) 
form 
of E-mail is plain ASCII text, it just makes sense to (AT LEAST FOR AN INITIAL 
CONTACT) to employ that cross-platform, everyone-can-read-it style.

When the fax it 
to someone, they want it to come out the same on the remote side. 

Fax by its nature is an IMAGE.  HTML is NOT an image, nor is it a page 
description language (no matter how strongly some of its users try to make it 
that).

When the paper mail it to someone, they want it the same way on the 
other side.  So not surprisingly they have this weird idea that the 
recipient should see the email the way they composed it.  That's how 
it works in real life.  That's how they want it to work on their 
computer.

They can do that using Adobe Acrobat, Word, TeX, and various other kinds of 
page 
composition languages.  HTML is NOT like any of those.

But in ANY case, there is a quantum, crucial difference about E-mail than about 
Web sites or E-publishing... E-mail is often between just TWO people, and it's 
not ONLY about what just ONE of them wants.  To be useful, it must be useful 
and 
correspond with the needs and wishes of BOTH of those parties.

And don't talk to me about bits.  Or dangerous content.  Having your 
computer on the internet is dangerous.  

You do NOT get viruses/worms/trojans from plain ASCII text E-mails.  HTML 
and/or 
attachments are crucial components to virtually EVERY type of malicious E-mails 
(i.e. not just 'fraudulent' like the Nigerian scams).

Agreed that there might be other firewall-type attacks, but virtually every 
type 
of malicious code which arrives by E-mail comes in either HTML-burdened or 
attachment-carrying E-mail.  Restricting who can send you that to a subset of 
your correspondents will result in a probably-similar reduction in your 
vulnerability to attacks arriving that way.  We can probably agree that 
protecting your computer from malicious code isn't the focus of this group;  
but 
it is a nice side benefit that the SAME mechanism which will help make the spam 
situation so much better will also help the malicious-code-attack problem too.

You've made an apriori decision that HTML email isn't okay with you. 

I'm willing to accept it from SOME senders, those who use it responsibly and 
who 
I trust to not abuse it (and whose transmissions are unlikely to overflow my 
Inbox).

Great.  Don't accept it. But don't try and massively complicate 
everyone's life just because of your personal preference.  

The goal is not to "massively complicate" anybody's life, but we ARE trying to 
solve some problems here, and solving them IS GOING TO MEAN changing at least 
some characteristics of the status quo.

You want 
to make everyone's machine keep track of who they have ever 
communicated with (On this machine?  With this email program?  With 
this email address?  With this ISP?).  

That is not a key part of my proposal, although if it's only just a matter of 
destination/origin name pairs I would suggest that "keeping track" of every 
correspondent you've exchanged mail with represents a terribly small database 
by 
today's standards (and that doesn't necessarily need to be on your own machine, 
it could well be at your ISP or domain provider).

You want to change the default behavior of 90% of the MUAs out there.  

I think that just about everything we have been proposing represents at least 
SOME kind of change, AT LEAST at the ISP level.  One big advantage of what I 
propose is that it can be implemented at a *single* ISP (indeed, even at a 
single *recipient*) and virtually immediately yield a very substantial 
improvmement.

You want to change the 
behavior of every MTA out there that receives email (or else every 
MUA has to add the code for tracking and bouncing).  You want to 
explain to the users how to change these settings, and have *them* 
keep track of whether they have every sent mail to a particular user 
at this particular email address and from this particular address 
before, and then if not, have them change a setting that they don't 
even understand.

Senders don't *need* to change anything, depending on how the system is 
implemented and how the recipient sets things up.  It's possible to handle 
*everything* that's truly required from the sender's end.

(Indeed, you don't even HAVE to involve the ISP, although the Net-wide costs 
are 
less if you truncate the unwanted mail earlier in the transmission path).

And all to bring about a change that spammers can adapt to in less 
than a week.  

Changing to plain ASCII text E-mail will get the mail past THAT level, but it 
will (again) deny them the great majority of their most cherished tricks, AND 
make their stuff more readily filtered by content filters.  It makes it harder 
for spammers to confuse, deceive, and trick their victims.  So even when 
spammers "adapt", they _never_ get back to what they had before.

Because you know what?  They didn't need HTML to sell 2 
million Iraqi most-wanted cards in two weeks.  They didn't need HTML 
to con people into flying to Nigeria and getting killed.  And they 
certainly don't need it to sell penis expanders.

No, and you know what?  Any SINGLE person can send any SINGLE fraudulent offer 
to ANYBODY for ANY reason, and there's damned little ANYBODY can do to prevent 
that.  (Hell, your brother-in-law could convince you to buy his lemon of a used 
car, too).  There's no substitute, ultimately, for being intelligent and not 
getting screwed in a bad deal.  What we're trying to do is to put a crimp in 
their gears, and to make life more difficult for spammers and abusers.

As for those who seem so determined to prevent that from happening... one has 
to 
wonder what their true agenda actually is, and whose side they're on.

Sure, it would be wonderful if there were some directory of what 
formats people would accept, 

Spammers should NOT be able to just look that up, I think.  It makes their life 
easier, and there's little reason for us to do that for them.  :-)

and if you could easily keep track of 
whether you've sent mail to someone before, and they could easily 
keep track of whether they've received mail from you before.  

Again, those things don't really have to be done, either.


Gordon Peterson                  http://personal.terabites.com/
1977-2002  Twenty-fifth anniversary year of Local Area Networking!
Support the Anti-SPAM Amendment!  Join at http://www.cauce.org/
12/19/98: Partisan Republicans scornfully ignore the voters they "represent".
12/09/00: the date the Republican Party took down democracy in America.



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