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Re: [ietf-smtp] [imapext] Fwd: Request to form a new WG: JMAP

2016-11-14 15:49:22
I agree with almost everything you said here, Ned, except for the idea that
offline isn't important. For those of us who travel internationally, being
able to look up travel info on your phone before you have your
international SIM is crucial, and this is just one example of a situation
where this is important.

On Nov 15, 2016 4:49 AM, "Ned Freed" <ned(_dot_)freed(_at_)mrochek(_dot_)com> 

Apologies for the late response on this one.

A few questions about some of your comments (again, just

--On Wednesday, November 09, 2016 07:15 -0800 Ned Freed
<ned(_dot_)freed(_at_)mrochek(_dot_)com> wrote:

The complexity of the requests and replies are the issue. If
its mostly converting IMAP to JSON, the same problems are
going to exist.

Yes and no. Part of the problem with IMAP is that it was
designed for a very different sort of client than what we have

Which design model are you talking about?   It seems to me that
the original specs (through and including RFC 1064 and IIR 1176)
had only what we now call online mode and was optimized for
"kiosk" uses.  With the exception of the "walk up to someone
else's shared machine" part, that seems very similar to what we
have today with the assumption that everything is on the server,
the client keeps messages only on a transient basis, and one
cannot access messages unless one is online.    It seems to me
that is not very different from where we are headed now, whether
via "dumb MUA" or "MUA implemented on a web interface".   It may
be more complex than needed because it contains some
optimizations are what, by today's standards, are low-bandwidth
environments but some of those features also have security
advantages (that we haven't talked about very much recently).

Pretty much the entire design model is canted away from what I see being
by modern clients.

One assumption the old model makes is that bandwidth is cheap enough that
there's no need to highly optimize metadata transfer. And to some extent
also applies to message data, e.g., the lack of support for message
and thumbnails, but that's a more complex topic.

This matters because with mobile client view timliness is critical, but
not at
the expense of bandwidth. And push notifications only get you half of the
there - once notified you have to connect and update.

Sit down with a mobile client designer sometime, and you'll quickly see
that in
order to build the sorts of message displays they want without
transferring far
more data than they need or can afford, you need to engage a large number
IMAP extensions, and even then you're unlikely to achieve the exact result
would prefer.

And then there's search. A powerful search capability is now essential, but
IMAP search assumes a particular set of semantics that are simultaneously
what a mobile client needs (nobody is going to spend time entering complex
search terms on their phone) as well as being misaligned with modern text
search engines, making it difficult to implement on the back end. (What
typically happens is implementations vary substantially from what the
specifications call for, and vary in different ways.)

Then there's the stuff that nobody cares about that you have to support,

I could go on and list more stuff, but I think this makes the point that
there's a mismatch. And really, given how the landscape has changed and
how old
some of these specifications are, I see no reason for surprise.

Now, when we added offline (simulated POP3 on steroids) and
disconnected modes with IMAP4, things got more complex.  From my
personal perspective, disconnected mode (more or less the
ancient PCMAIL model) is the only thing that makes sense for
people with poor or intermittent connectivity, especially if
they need to work offline sometimes and use multiple machines.
However, it has never been broadly and well-supported in MUAs
(there are, IMO, a few "good enough" MUA implementations but no
really good ones) so maybe the marketplace has told us there
aren't enough users to count.

Offline support is another thing that's increasingly superfluous now.
devices are expected to always be online and to present an up-to-date view
the world at all times.

Of course the sync capbilities designed to support offline mode can also be
used to minimize data transfer for a connected client, but even so, it's
quite the same problem.

Now, I've never been a fan of the LISP-like command and response
syntax, but that is much more a matter of taste than

Unfortunately, syntax matters more than it really should. I previously
out that the complexity of HTTPS in this context is irrelevant because
a library for that". The same is true for JSON - the automapping mapping of
JSON to and from data structures that many languages offer is very

(I note that the problem SMTP is intended to solve hasn't
changed nearly as much.)

I agree with you but have heard claims that the multiple relay
and alternate destination (mail exhannge) models have outlived
their usefulness in today's highly-connected Internet.

Even if it's true, this is all external to SMTP itself, and I don't think
it's relevant here.

I don't
see things as that highly connected (even looking to the future,
SMTP would work much better in the presence of a DTN than, e.g.,
HTTP[S} and for much the same reason it worked well for delivery
servers that were only connected a few hours a week) and I think
the robustness those features enable as important.  However,
there is no disputing that mail transport could be considerably
simplified if we allowed only endpoint-to-endpoint connections
with no alternatives.

Uh, no, not really. To the extent that implementation of message transfer
is a
complex problem, it's mostly in the splitting of messages and the handling
errors. These problems don't go away when you limit things to one hop. In
one of the nice things about SMTP is that you don't know and don't need to
how many hops there are ahead of you.

The complexity of transitions through multiple ADMDs grots up the security
spam situation, but those are for the most part externalities to the SMTP

Additionally, this notion of getting rid of multiple hops across the
ignores the present day reality that as the size of a "typical" mail system
deployment has increased, so has the number of hops messages often take
the deployment.

Such connections would also permit
straightforward feature negotiation.  That would be a big help
for, e.g., EAI/SMTPUTP8 and similar arrangements and might even
help blur the boundary between transport-level and end0t9-end

Perhaps, but again, I don't see the relevance to the matter at hand.

 Getting rid of historical baggage will definitely simplify things.

But that is my question.  I don't see IMAP disconnected mode as
historical baggage.  We've ended up with some redundant ways to
do things as a result of newer and more powerful options and
commands and the old ways could be cleared out.   We could
probably make some different choices about data structures and
maybe even standardize some things that today just add to the
complexity of the options.  But I'm not sure how significant
those actually would be -- what are you thinking of?

IMAP disconnected mode support isn't baggage because it provides
that are useful to mobile connected clients, albeit in a somewhat

That said, there absolutely is substantial baggage in IMAP.


My guestimate is that - and here I'm speaking only of the
message access space - that a HTTPS/JSON approach wins in
terms of effective implementation complexity, although it is
far from clear to me by how much.

But, unless we can get rid of IMAP (and some of the
functionality, like disconnected mode, that can't obviously be
supported over a purely HTTPS/JSON interface) entirely, it seems
to me that an HTTPS/JOSN approach is additive, requiring the
mail environment to support both it and IMAP for (at least) a
very long time.  So, while I agree with your guess, I don't see
the need to support an additional as a net gain, especially in
the short to medium term.

Just a guess on my part, but I rather suspect that disconnected mode is
easier to do on top of a protocol designed to optimize mobile sync than
the other way around.

Of course this ignores the cost of conversion. But I don't think you can
necessarily make the case based on protocol features alone.


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