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Re: [ietf-smtp] IETF Policy on dogfood consumption or avoidance - SMTP version

2019-12-26 11:01:04

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 26, 2019, at 11:30 AM, Dave Crocker <dhc(_at_)dcrocker(_dot_)net> 

On 12/26/2019 8:19 AM, Keith Moore wrote:
By all means, cite documents that present such results.

There are two problem with that request.  The first is that it isn't 
specific, so we would wind up playing a guessing game of what will satisfy 

Shall we rather constrain ourselves to do only what satisfies you?

The second is that this isn't an issue that can be satisfied with a point 
response.  The entire process of developing proposals needs to be based on 
deep and pragmatic experience, not just reference to one or another study.

Problem is, there’s no way to evaluate experience without measurement.  

Hence it requires meaningful participation of folk with that experience.

I don’t actually disagree with this.  But my experience is that when you’re 
first  trying to put together a proposal, the last thing you need is people 
looking for reasons to shoot it down.  What you need instead is people trying 
to figure out how it can be made to work.  And it can help to have experienced 
people in that discussion, if (and only if) they can still be flexible and 
creative.  But it can also help to have less experienced people in that 
discussion, because such people can often see potential approaches that the 
experienced people can’t.  Especially if circumstances have changed since the 
experienced people wrote off that idea, or a similar idea, as unworkable. 

Later on, of course, new ideas need to be vetted by a broader community before 
any significant scale of implementation should be encouraged.  

But if you want to do the work of formulating a specific proposal,

Well, that’s always been my idea.  I certainly don’t expect, and wouldn’t ask, 
for a working group to be formed without fairly concrete proposals in place.  
(And perhaps some running code for demonstration and experiment.)

What I’m trying to do at the moment is see how many people are actually 
interested in improving the reliability of internet email, and who are willing 
to brainstorm about how this might be accomplished.

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