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Re: MX dot was (Re: [ietf-dkim] TXT wildcards SSP issues

2007-06-08 06:23:15
Jim Fenton wrote:
Hector Santos wrote:
Do the DNS query for the valid ones and fake sub domains, or no
subdomains:

    NSLOOKUP -query=txt  SUBDOMAINS._ssp.santronics.com

You said it won't work "AT ALL." I would like to know why not? Every policy I want is defined including eliminating the ABUSE with a
global NOMAIL record.


You're right, that one works.

Now suppose that, instead of santronics.com, you were
santronics.homestead.fl.us (domains of this form do exist).  The query
for SUBDOMAINS.santronics.homestead._ssp.fl.us wouldn't yield the
desired result.

Steve overstated his case when he said it would not work at all, but it
does not work in general.

Its amazing how these are perceived here. :-)

Ok, I understand the point about the gTLDs, and ccTLDs now.

I think the main thing that I wanted to extract from this exercise is that the TXT record layout technique I describe was doable. In other words, once the query question can be established, the layout of the wildcard TXT records would satisfy the requirement for sub-domain policies.

I think I accomplish that. Am I still wrong there?

So the issue is now what is the query question or more specifically, where does the domain ownership begins and can the client understand what are the gTLDs and/or ccTLDs.

I think we can solve this query question various way:

1) Provide a HINT in the DKIM-signature.

2) Use a Doug suggestion to make it part of the LOOKUP algorithm to contain a list name space of currently gTLDS and ccTLDs.

3) Less optimal, use a SOA or ANY to where the tlds end and domain
ownership begins. This can be cached so subsequent queries will be more direct.

4) Provide a discovery record for the full domain.

Also, we have two design requirements to resolve:

   - One that satisfies as written requirement that you only
     need to look for SSP for failed signatures,

   - One that satisfies ALLOWABLE implementations that
     can do a SSP lookup at all times.

I think I proved via DSAP that abuse is possible for non-signed messages abusing a domain. So if one takes the presumption is that a NON-SIGNED message is an INVALID message, a lookup for SSP will be desirable.

What that means is that option #1 will not work reliable. SSP *should* not be dependent on having a DKIM-Signature record present.

However, those who believe that SSP is not active unless a DKIM-Signature is available, then a HINT can be provided on DKIM-Signature header.

I think that the safest bet is to make SSP independent of the DKIM-Signature header.

There has got to be a way to resolve that TLD vs domain ownership level issue. It seems so simple, but it might require some initial two queries. In lieu of that, Doug Idea sounds like the only real way to solve this - the client must be aware of the gTLD and ccTLD or there must be a way to extract this information.

--
Sincerely

Hector Santos, CTO
http://www.santronics.com
http://santronics.blogspot.com

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