Re: "straightforward, reasonable, and fair"
2005-05-07 09:41:48
I am puzzled by this thread which only document the way the Internet
standard process is _not_ respected and how to fix the problem in _not_
respecting it. The discussion should either lead to calls of order, or to
formal amendments to the Internet standard process.
I never shared in an IETF F2F meeting because too expensive - and I do not
see the interest if it is not universal. So, I only see the IETF-on-line. I
am dismayed by some narrowness of its vision. I fully accept its structural
quasi-impossibility to innovate (innovation calls for a step ahead,
consensus takes time). I am impressed by the simplicity of the Internet
standard process methodology. The only real problem is the NOMCOM issue -
actually the number of IESG candidates: I submit that this problem could
resolve by itself if the other problems were on the way to be addressed.
This calls complete review of the logic.
I see all this as a standard press/publisher process (and this is why I am
surprised that the IASA project was not thought as financially self
sustaining).
It offers two possible tracks:
1. an author has an idea for an editorial series/article which can come
from the continuation of a previous article, to make a "standard" of it or
to keep reporting on a common practice.
2. he contacts a specialised editorial manager (like sports, economy,
leisures, fashion, etc. in a magazine) and his partner.
3. if interested the editorial managers talk to the editorial committee
4. if interested the committee create an editorial staff and team and
define the charter of the planned deliverables.
5. the editorial team starts delivering
a. a free-lance sends an article - often reporting on something existing -
to the editorial committee
6. deliverables are reviewed by the editorial committe
7. deliverables are circulated to every journalist and freelance for final
review and QA
8. deliverables are sent to the publisher for final massaging, formating
and publication through the RFC track (magazine) or the IANA database
(associated radio station).
At every step, everyone, through the editorial committee, can call on the
advise/arbitration of the editorial board and use the in-house tools and
procedure, using a few web sites and a large number of independent mailing
lists. The publishing entreprise is a cooperative structure. A selection
committee is in charge of feeding the structre (managers, editorial
committee and board) with appropriate members.
Am I wrong reading it this way?
If not, I see several flaws in the editorial governance policy (the way it
works, not the way it is built)
1. the editorial board does not maintain an editorial line everyone
(readers alike) can refer to. A network architecture model.
2. there are constant track violations. Once the opord of an editorial team
has been given, understood and possibly commented, it should be respected
or updated. But not whimsically changed by editorial managers or the
editorial committee. They should only consider if the deliverables fit the
order. Or change the order. This is what this thread is mostly about.
3. authors/journalists are not paid enough. Their salary is recognition and
usefullness. The magazine does not promote its editorial horde (hoard?).
What is wrong because recognition means exposure and exposure leads to
self-quality control. As a whole exposure and recognition also means public
interest and sponsors.
4. audience is not monitored. People start being bored with the Dallas-like
IPv6 saga and the NAT/noNAT love story.They would like new topics on their
real daily life, sometimes totally unknown to the magazine 'experts' as I
just experimented in the languages area.
5. the editorial culture is still very confuse and provincial. The magazine
is still very rooted as a Californian local publication. It should open
itself to the world and get multilingual (spirit, editorial concerns and
culture, languages, structural organization and concerns) and multinational
(local list should help people to know each other, outreach and start
innovative projects)
6. the tools (internal and external) have become confuse and outdated The
website is very low relational quality. With a Washingtown Times 1990 look.
I used a better mailing list system in 25 years ago.
7. the Radio Station (IANA) has grown-up out of control, yet the Internet
standard process is still only magazine oriented. Control over the IANA or
its replacement should be organised and a IANA standard process defined.
Same for web site.
8. other side services like innovation (IRTF?), training, catalog,
statistics etc. exist in a way. They should be considered and
organized/managed the same.
9. PRs are poor. Every new RFC should be promoted to be made understood and
the authors exposed and recognized. There should be a press release
explaining its interest, etc.
10. there should be a "year book" summarising the state of the art in the
different area of interest of the magazine, readers could refer to.
Once this is solved, or on commitment to be solved, I suppose that people
ready to accept nominations will me more numerous. There is no risk in
publishing the list of the nominated persons (by an least n persons
including x from IESG?) who have accepted to be candidate. There would
already a strong recognition in it.
jfc
At 07:19 07/05/2005, Pekka Savola wrote:
On Fri, 6 May 2005, Ralph Droms wrote:
What is the context of technical astuteness? How do you compare
people with different technical focuses? You can't.
Giving ADs a private veto (private in the sense of not discussed in
public) seems to compare technical astuteness and assign more weight to
ADs. I suggest public discussion avoids giving ADs' technical
astuteness undue weight.
If an AD raises an issue about a document (from area X) that it
conflicts or causes serious problems (from the perspective of area Y),
how do you ensure that the more technically astute people
(particularly on Y but also a bit on X) participate in the discussion?
By making the discussion public...
[...]
There is nothing to prevent making such discussions public. Many groups
already do so so; the comments are already recorded in a public database,
and when the WG (chair or document editor) follows up on those, e.g., by
discussing the Discuss, it can be done Cc'ing the mailing list.
Or do you have the problem that the discussion is held on the WG list (and
not on a wider forum), and for individual submissions, probably in
private? (individual submissions are problematic in this sense, but they
_are_ individual..)
So I don't see what problem you're seeing. To me, a Discuss is a flag an
AD can raise "I think there may be a serious issue here, and we need to
discuss it in case you disagree".
In principle, I consider that reasonable given the responsibily of the
IESG for technical quality.
However, sometimes this has some issues. Specifically, sometimes ADs seem
to be very busy and do not have time to respond to attempts at initiating
dialogue or the round-trip time between messages is high. (Also, there are
cases where the WG drops the ball for months, and then gets back later --
by then the AD has probably already forgotten what (s)he said and has to
re-read parts of the spec.) This is a particular problem if the WG thinks
AD's issue is not really relevant or is flat out wrong; it may take a
while to convince the AD (though the responsible AD may be able to help in
these scenarios).
Maybe _this_ is something where we should consider how to increase the
timeliness and effectiveness of the dialogue.
--
Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the
Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds."
Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings
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- Re: text suggested by ADs, (continued)
- Re: text suggested by ADs, Ralph Droms
- Re: text suggested by ADs, Dave Crocker
- "straightforward, reasonable, and fair", Keith Moore
- Re: "straightforward, reasonable, and fair", Ralph Droms
- Re: "straightforward, reasonable, and fair", Keith Moore
- Re: "straightforward, reasonable, and fair", Pekka Savola
- Re: "straightforward, reasonable, and fair", Ralph Droms
- Re: "straightforward, reasonable, and fair", Pekka Savola
- Re: "straightforward, reasonable, and fair",
JFC (Jefsey) Morfin <=
- Re: "straightforward, reasonable, and fair", Brian E Carpenter
Re: text suggested by ADs, Steven M. Bellovin
Re: text suggested by ADs, Sam Hartman
Re: text suggested by ADs, Sam Hartman
Re: text suggested by ADs, Sam Hartman
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