RE: Patents can be for good, not only evil
2007-10-30 17:48:04
Phil's strategy here is not without issues. This was raised during the W3C
discussion when IBM pointed out at length that a license fee can be
considerably less of an inconvenience than certain Zero fee licenses.
So for example a requirement that you can only implement a protocol using Java
(or chose your language). Or use certain cipher suites, or a directory root
controlled by the patent holder, or any number of similar schemes.
Defensive patents are certainly an acceptable practice, one that I would like
to see encouraged. At this point I believe that you would find 95% of corporate
patent lawyers at Internet companies would rank defending against patent
lawsuits as a much higher priority than recovering revenue.
One of the problems I see here is that engineers can be dissuaded from applying
for defensive patents as doing so is likely to lead to them being held up for
ridicule on forums like Slashdot. This is particular the case with defensive
security patents which make claims against specific attacks against a system.
The point here being not to sell products that implement the attack but to
prevent others from doing so.
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Burger [mailto:eburger(_at_)bea(_dot_)com]
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 5:16 PM
To: Keith Moore; lrosen(_at_)rosenlaw(_dot_)com
Cc: ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Subject: Patents can be for good, not only evil
I would offer that patents are NOT categorically evil.
Phil Zimmerman has applied for patents in ZRTP, specifically
to ensure that all implementations fully conform with the
specification. Cost to license for a conformant
specification? $0. Cost to not really provide privacy but
claim to be implementing ZRTP? Costly!
I specifically applied for patents underlying the technology
behind RFC 4722/RFC 5022 and RFC 4730 specifically to prevent
third parties, who are not part of the IETF process, from
extracting royalties from someone who implements MSCML or
KPML. Cost to license? $0. Cost to sue someone who
infringes said third-party's IPR? That depends, but at least
we raised the cost of shutting down an IETF standard.
Remember, just because *you* do not have IPR in an IETF
standard does not mean someone *else* has IPR in the
standard. If that someone else does not participate in the
IETF or, for that matter, happen to not participate in the
work group or, in reality, are not editors of a document,
they can fully apply their IPR against the standard once it issues.
I like to have a little inoculation against that situation in
the stuff I submit.
-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Moore [mailto:moore(_at_)cs(_dot_)utk(_dot_)edu]
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 4:04 PM
To: lrosen(_at_)rosenlaw(_dot_)com
Cc: ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Subject: Re: When is using patented technology appropriate?
Lawrence Rosen wrote:
Keith Moore wrote:
For several reasons, it is difficult to imagine an IETF-wide
procedure that allows the existence of a patent to trump other
considerations of protocol feasibility and deployability:
Who suggested otherwise? It is not the existence of the patent that
matters, but its unavailability under license terms that allow
implementation in
*any* software.
_and_ its validity, _and_ its applicability, both of which
can be subjective and difficult to determine conclusively
without long delays
and excessive expense. so we have to make judgments. and by "we" I
mean individuals participating in IETF, not IETF itself.
The more feasible and deployable the protocol, the more
important will
be FOSS implementations.
only relative to other protocols in the same space.
granted that patents are the bane of any open
standards-making organization, because patents do exactly the
opposite of what open standards do. at the same time, we
can't let FUD about patents become a denial of service attack
to IETF efforts.
Keith
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- RE: Patents can be for good, not only evil, (continued)
- Re: Patents can be for good, not only evil, Dave Crocker
- Re: Patents can be for good, not only evil, Byung-Hee HWANG
- RE: Patents can be for good, not only evil, Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- RE: Patents can be for good, not only evil, michael.dillon
- RE: Patents can be for good, not only evil, Yaakov Stein
- Re: Patents can be for good, not only evil, peter_blatherwick
- RE: Patents can be for good, not only evil,
Hallam-Baker, Phillip <=
- Re: A priori IPR choices [Re: Third Last Call:draft-housley-tls-authz-extns], Sam Hartman
- Re: A priori IPR choices [Re: Third Last Call:draft-housley-tls-authz-extns], Ted Hardie
- Re: A priori IPR choices [Re: Third Last Call:draft-housley-tls-authz-extns], Sam Hartman
- Re: A priori IPR choices [Re: Third Last Call:draft-housley-tls-authz-extns], Ted Hardie
- Re: A priori IPR choices, Brian E Carpenter
- Re: A priori IPR choices, Scott Kitterman
- Re: A priori IPR choices, Norbert Bollow
- Re: A priori IPR choices, Scott Kitterman
- Re: A priori IPR choices, Ted Hardie
- RE: A priori IPR choices, Lawrence Rosen
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