Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work

If the calls are produce action items and proposed resolutions that aretaken to the working group email list in a clear fashion, then it isprobably working well enough.


I am not seeing that from most of these groups.

If there are a lot of open issues (which would seem to go with havingvalue in multiple calls) then a wiki or other easily used tracker tokeep current information accessible is understandable. I personallyfind that using those trackers as a place to have the conversations,assome WG chairs want to do, is very difficult. But I can't say it isagainst the rules.

If there is going to be noticable time lag between issues being raisedand their being addressed in the document, using the document tracker torecord all the issues and their resolutions is also very helpful.

And I expect that design teams have more frequent calls than workinggroups. That is why you have a design team.

So I am not saying we should never use conference calls. And I am notsaying we should not use good tooling.But I am seeing more and more working groups having biweekly conferencecalls. It is quite understandable that the discussion may continue fromcall to call. But that means that the WG is NOT seeing the discussionon the list. And that the resolution, when it comes to the list, willbe missing a LOT of context.


Yours,
Joel

On 2/26/15 11:13 AM, Mary Barnes wrote:

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Joel Halpern Direct
<jmh(_dot_)direct(_at_)joelhalpern(_dot_)com 
<mailto:jmh(_dot_)direct(_at_)joelhalpern(_dot_)com>> wrote:

    One of the working groups where I have observed this is one where I
    am a document author and was an active contributor.  I am still
    trying to contribute.  Minutes don't cut it.  (I looked at the
    minutes from the one session I participated in.  While they were
    formally correct, I doubt that they would have helped anyone not on
    the call actually engage in the discussion.  As evidence I point out
    that the discussions do not get followed up on the list.

[MB] Aren't these all management issues?  I would think the WG chairs
would ensure that all the key contributors are available. And, of
course, there should be adequate minutes produced along with action
items identified and I would assume those are taken to the mailing list
and/or added to an issue tracker.  As others have noted email is not the
best way to resolve some of the more complex problems introduced in our
technical work.  I totally agree about the timezone issue.  For CLUE WG,
folks were flexible about shifting our meetings to ensure an attendee in
Australia could attend when we were discussing issues to which he had
input.  Note, that we identified ahead of time on our WG wiki what the
topic for that meeting was.  We were flexible about re-arranging those
for the key contributors.  [/MB]


    One of the other groups I follow, and no I don't expect the work to
    be optimized for a follower.  But judging from what I see, even an
    active participant and author would have trouble if they could not
    make the phone calls.

    We claim that we do our work on the email list.  I do understand
    that phone calls and face to face meetings are useful for resolving
    hard issues.  I am not saying "don't have interims".  But if one is
    having a phone call every two to three weeks, then the working group
    is NOT conducting its work on the mailing list.  If we want to throw
    in the towel and say that you need a higher engagement level to
    participate, then we should own up to that.  It will severely harm
    cross-fertilization and participation in multiple working groups.
    But maybe that is what we need to give up.

[MB] In CLUE WG, we had weekly calls (if we had a topic identified that
we felt benefitted from a verbal discussion.  Again, I think it's a
management issue if things are not documented and what is deemed to be
consensus is not taken to the WG mailing list for confirmation and any
additional discussion as necessary.  I still consider the work having
been conducted on the mailing list in that we posted links (or directly
the minutes) to the WG mailing list and when we added issues to the
tracker, the WG gets notified. [/MB]


    But pretending that frequent working group (not design team, working
    group) conference calls are a good way to work and consistent with
    our ethos does not match what I have seen.

[MB] I, of course, totally disagree. We should use all the communication
tools available to progress our work.  I totally agree of the importance
of traceability in the email archives, which is why links to minutes,
issues in the tracker, etc. ought all be posted to the WG mailing list.
IMHO, we would actually benefit from WGs actually using the wikis to
more carefully document decisions - it's a heck of lot easier in some
cases than trying to dig through WG or personal email archives.  [/MB]

    Yours,
    Joel


    On 2/26/15 10:15 AM, Ted Lemon wrote:

        On Feb 26, 2015, at 10:05 AM, Joel M. Halpern
        <jmh(_at_)joelhalpern(_dot_)com <mailto:jmh(_at_)joelhalpern(_dot_)com>>
        wrote:

            I need to agree with John here.  There are several WGs I try to
            monitor that started having frequent interim conference calls.
            There is no way I can reliably make time for that.  The
            advantage
            of email is that I can fit it in around the work I need to do
            (including reading it during corporate conference calls.)
            In one
            case I have had to dramatically reduce my effective
            participation
            in the WG because most of the work moved to the conference
            calls.


        If you "try to monitor" these working groups, it sounds like you
        aren't an active participant.   The meetings are supposed to be
        minuted, so you ought to be able to monitor them by reading the
        minutes.

        Do you think we should optimize working groups for getting work
        done,
        or for being monitored?   Or have I misunderstood what you mean when
        you say "try to monitor"?