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RE: IETF Last Call conclusion for draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08

2017-03-30 15:21:16
Great thoughts/info and they all make sense from an IETF perspective. 
From an enterprise perspective, it is unlikely that anyone in that world knows 
what moving to IS means or implies.   
So the problem that I have in trying to get my enterprise, or the many we have 
direct (or even indirect) connections with, to even THINK about IPv6, is coming 
up with reasons to do so.   There are a couple of reasons/features that I have 
hope could be compelling.  But if those features depend on EHs, or anything 
unsupported, future or "Exceptional",  they will not be compelling at all.  
My world is a tough sell.   I just do not want it to get any tougher.  
Thanks
Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org] On Behalf Of Tim Chown
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 3:27 PM
To: 6man WG <ipv6(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org>; 
draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis(_dot_)all(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Cc: IETF Discussion <ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org>
Subject: Re: IETF Last Call conclusion for draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis-08

Hi,

On 30 Mar 2017, at 19:19, 神明達哉 <jinmei(_at_)wide(_dot_)ad(_dot_)jp> wrote:

At Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:52:41 -0500,
Robert Raszuk <robert(_at_)raszuk(_dot_)net> wrote:

Ok so till a new document updates 2460bis any further work on EHs is 
frozen as it would reference 2460bis with new text. That was my main point.

I don't get the logic...an "update" can start immediately once such a 
draft new proposal is available.  The update won't be formally 
completed until it gets some formal state like a standard track RFC, 
and it will take time, but that wouldn't necessarily mean a further 
work is "frozen"; it's not very clear to me what this term means in 
this context, but it's quite common development takes place while the 
spec is being discussed as a draft, and it's also not uncommon some 
commercial operators even start deploying it.  On the other hand, even 
if we now agreed that rfc2460bis should explicitly allow such "further 
work", the discussion itself would take long and wouldn't be completed 
soon.

But IMO it's irresponsible to leave the text ambiguous and let some 
other people misunderstand it, possibly even more casually and/or in 
the global Internet, for the comfort of some particular future work.
I think we're now trying to help avoid the latest clarification in 
rfc2460bis to be interpreted as an "outright ban" of future updates 
while still trying to be responsible for the soundness of the global 
Internet.  In my understanding Brian's additional text is one such 
attempt (I also proposed text in that sense at the time of WGLC, 
although it wasn't adopted in the end).  If that text is still not 
enough we can discuss how to phrase it.  And, while I suspect people 
who wanted to keep the ambiguity will never be satisfied with the 
result as long as the added clarification remains, I believe that's a 
reasonable compromise to achieve a balance between being responsible 
and not (unintentionally) discouraging future updates.

Repeating what I said at the mic, my views echo those of Jinmei, Michael, 
Lorenzo and Brian. I agree with the decision to progress RFC2460-bis to IS 
including Suresh’s text. I’d also like to see Brian’s short amendment included, 
which makes explicit Internet scope as the default target.

Advancing 2460bis doesn’t freeze work on SR; that work can continue today. I 
don’t see the new SR header insertion draft completing in “a couple of weeks”; 
it’s much more likely to take several months or even a year to progress through 
WG adoption and eventual publication, to ensure good and robust input. For 
adoption, I’d expect many people to want the draft to include text on a) why 
vanilla encapsulation is not sufficient and b) how the insertion can guaranteed 
to be done safely for specific scenario(s). But that’s all very possible.

And please do note that publishing 2460-bis as an Internet Standard does not 
set it in stone. Your SR work can update it, as could other future RFC(s) on 
other new mechanism(s) or innovation(s) that have yet to be proposed. I’d argue 
that it’s pretty likely we’ll see other RFCs update 2460-bis; that shouldn’t be 
a surprise if it’s a protocol that we’ll be using for the next 20-30 years or 
more. For each, we’ll just see “Updated by:” tags in the RFC header. The 
current RFC2460 has accumulated nine such tags in 19 years, so about one every 
two years.

On enterprise deployment I’d argue that, if anything, moving to IS should help 
strengthen the case for deployment, because it confirms proven widescale 
deployment.  The four criteria for moving to IS are described in Section 2.2 of 
RFC6410, but are summarised as "a high degree of technical maturity and by a 
generally held belief that the specified protocol or service provides 
significant benefit to the Internet community”. I’d hope we have very strong 
consensus on that statement.

Tim
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