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Re: Virtual last call on "bounce"

2005-09-11 12:04:00

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex van den Bogaerdt" <alex(_at_)ergens(_dot_)op(_dot_)het(_dot_)net>
To: <ietf-smtp(_at_)imc(_dot_)org>
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 7:20 AM
Subject: Re: Virtual last call on "bounce"

On Sun, Sep 11, 2005 at 03:16:05AM -0400, John C Klensin wrote:

The wind seems to be blowing in the direction of removing the
term "bounce" from 2821bis.  Different people have different
reasons, but I don't think I've detected anyone who has claimed
that there is value in leaving it in.

I think one of the following actions is needed:

a) remove it entirely
b) Acknowledge the fact (by saying so in the RFC) that people use it
   for different things and therefore had to be removed.  Bounce is
   thus described only once, all other places where it was mentioned
   need to be removed
c) use it to describe reject (5xx) only, as it was in 821
d) use it to describe NDN only, and make it clear this differs from
   what 821 had to say about it

As it is now, there is indeed no value for leaving it in.

I am always in favor of clearing up ambiguity. I don't think removing BOUNCE
is one of them.

A Bounce is long established to mean one thing - a x822 message was
GENERATED and queued for sending back to the return path.

A Rejection or NDN does not imply this.

NDN or Non-Delivery Notification could also imply to be a NON-x822 signal
generated by a MUA failure to complete a direct SMTP client/server

If you want to be specific, then the possible usage of NDM or Non-Delivery
Message is more precise.  Notification does not imply a message. It could be
purely at the SMTP level when this occurs.

A Bounce means one thing and one thing only:

- it concisely implies a reception has taken place,
- it concisely implies there was a non-delivery delayed status,
- it concisely implies a x822 mail object, entity, data was created, and
- it concisely implies the message was queued for the return path.

I failed to see why this precise long term understood concept is being
challenged now.

If this removed and replaced with NDN, I predict a new on-going "thorn on
the side" of repeated questions like:

    "Why kind of notification was this?"
    "What kind of rejection was this?"
    "What was the response code?"
    "I'm confused. Are you talking about a bounce?"

Hector Santos, Santronics Software, Inc.

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