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Re: A Good Schism Brightens Anyone's Day (was: A Simple Question)

2003-04-29 14:23:20
On dinsdag, apr 29, 2003, at 20:24 Europe/Amsterdam, Peter Deutsch wrote:

I personally suspect that the Nestorians are on to something here, but
I'd be happy to study the data and reach an alternative conclusion if I
could have something beside this on-going "Jane, you ignorant slut"
level of debate.

So here are a few things we could ask:

    - So what percentage of machines really are being NATed right now?

- What percentage of traffic is generated and consumed by NATed hosts?

    - What's the deployment rate of IPv6 (ie. is it growing fast enough
      to matter to me in five years?)

How is answering any of these questions going to help us? "Oh, NATed traffic is 7% and not 5%! You are right we should have site local addresses then!"

The current state of IPv6 deployment has very little bearing on future IPv6 deployment. Just look back 20 years in IPv4. I don't think any of the problems we have today could have been predicted by looking at the network then.

Getting provider independent addressing is plausible - we just need
to make the network topology (somehow) stop being controlled by the
providers.

:-)  And I thought I'd seen it all in multi6.

Getting addressing that is independent of the topology is a much more
interesting problem.  That one I don't believe we have any way to
accomplish yet, that works with routing.   Until we do, we need
addressing for local use.

As I read this my first reaction was "great observation, it's good to
see a new idea enter this debate". Then, a milliblip later my brain
fired a neuron that yelled out "Hey, aren't NATs just a means for users
to provide themselves with a topologically independent addresses to
divorce them from the topologically oriented address space imposed on
them by their ISPs?"

No, of course not. That's like saying English is the official language of China because when you read about something said in China it is translated in English.

The problem with renumbering isn't the address the host thinks it has itself, but the address others think it has. We have well-established procedures for assigning addresses to hosts. Changing the address a DNS name points to is much, much more difficult, and changing references to addresses elsewhere, such as in filter configurations, is a nightmare.

There are lots of good reasons to go for a Monophysitian address space,
so presumably there must be some compelling alternative reasons why
people keep ignoring this principle. It looks like we might want to add
"provides non-topologically structured address space" to the list of
advantages for NATs. Personally, I believe that 142 percent of the
people that install NATs do it for this reason alone!!  ;-)

I wouldn't presume to know why people use NAT because I'm not one of them. (Beginning to feel like a minority.) But let me make some observations:

- If we don't give people any sort of private address space, many will just take something and at some point some of this will clash with something else.

- If we set aside a small range of addresses for private use, many people will use the same addresses so when networks merge there will be trouble. In IPv4, this is often solved with NAT. So in IPv6 the same will happen OR people will have spend a lot of time and money renumbering.

- If we allow people to register non-routable globally unique addresses for private use, eventually some of this address space will leak out into the global routing table. In IPv4, filtering private address ranges and long prefixes is well-established and if and when this fails, the consequences are negligible.

So it seems to me that we are trying to make up our mind between a rock and a hard place while in fact a third option is almost completely painless.

We may also want to contemplate the difficulty of attaching secure services to ambiguous address space.