Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

I did book into a hotel with colleagues as I noted, but we all had
different schedules/dinner plans for the most part. I did not book
into the conference hotel because experience in Vienna led me to
decide that it was more convenient overall to be in the city center.
Also, based on my experience of not getting served a meal I ordered at
the venue hotel restaurant, my eating situation overall would have
been significantly worse had a chosen to stay at the venue and thus
not travel into the city at nite for a meal.  BTW, I had one of the
best meals ever in Maastricht at Le Courage, but that still doesn't
mean the city is a great place for a business meeting.

Personally, I don't routinely travel to places where my safety is put
at risk.  The first and most important step for self defense is
avoidance. My participation in the meeting precluded me from avoiding
the situations.

My point overall is actually quite simple - none of these things are
issues if the meetings are held in larger international cities or
secondary cities where everything is nearby.  We've had plenty of
meetings in a variety of locations that satisfy that criteria. My
point has been that those should be the top priorities for planning a
meeting and the pleasantness of the geographic location, weather,
tourism opportunities etc. should not be important factors in
selecting a venue.

Best Regards,
Mary.



On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Joel Jaeggli <joelja(_at_)bogus(_dot_)com> 
wrote:

On 8/29/10 12:29 PM, Mary Barnes wrote:

Joel,

Thank you so much for your sensitivity - you've done a wonderful job
of re-enforcing the idea that IETF is a hostile environment for women.


You're right, apparently I can't empathize and therefore I'm not going
to try. I would just note that I routinely trave to places where my
personal security is an issue, and I take steps accordinly.

 My guess is that you've never personally been in a situation where
you've been on a train late at nite and someone got overly friendly to
the point of making you feel very uncomfortable.


I've had my wallet taken at knifepoint while getting off a train, in the
united states. I'm not sure that constitutes friendly.

the issue is awareness of an exposure to risk, we take them every day,
the risks you're exposed that result in threats to your person to
wandering alone in the netherlands are measurably lower than most other
venues we've visisted and I for one am quite tired of you complain about
how dangerous it was. You clearly felt uncomfortable in that location
onus is frankly on you to take control of your situation insure that
your travel situation is as you find necessary.

The secretariat, The IAD, the folks doing the survey, the host and your
fellow ietf travelers cannot apriori accomiate all of the possible
pathways that people might choose to take.

Myself, I booked into the conference hotel, and I coordinated my travel
plans with colleagues arriving the same day. Probably if you had done
the same you wouldn't have these complaints, you would have concluded
instead that it was long walk to the Albert Heniji and the shopping
districit in the old city...

Well sorry, in case you haven't noticed it's little hard to build a
modern confernece facility in the middle of a 2000 year city, We get to
work with what we have some time.

I guess since the
crime rate in Maastricht is lower than other places, it should not
have bothered me at all for someone to enquire about what hotel I was
staying at and whether I was alone that nite. Fortunately, despite
having been enroute for 24 hours, I still had the sense to say I had
colleagues waiting for me at the hotel. And, fortunately, there was a
cab dropping someone off since the train station was closed and there
was no concept of a taxi queue, so I didn't have to walk to my hotel
alone.   As I said, I travel by myself alot and have never had that
sort of problem when traveling to major cities since there are usually
alot of other people around and I can just blend with the crowd.

The reason I did not have this problem in San Francisco is because the
majority of people I would have dinner with in the evening were
staying in the same hotel. I stayed in the meeting hotel, as well,
thus did not have to return to a hotel somewhere else in case of late
meetings.  There are also a plethora of travel guide books that let
you know what areas are safest. The streets are also well populated at
nite - the safety in numbers theory and I NEVER had to walk down a
deserted street late at nite.  NYC is notorious for crime, yet I am
quite safe walking down the street at 9pm or so at nite since there
are alot of people around and I am very sensible in terms of being
aware of my surroundings.  However, I also know that it's not a good
idea for me to be wandering any deserted city street at nite by
myself.

My hometown is considered extremely safe and likely on the same levels
as Maastricht, since the incidence of rape is also 1/3 the U.S.
national average (google Flower Mound, TX).  Violent crime is 1/10th
the national average.  I'm actually an excellent judge of relative
risk.  Yet I certainly don't put myself in a situation where I am
alone at nite walking down a street that I'm not familiar with.  If I
have to travel into the city at nite, I never do so alone. You might
suggest I have a choice as to whether I attend IETF meetings, I
contend that the logistics of the meetings should ensure that folks
don't have to deal with these sorts of situations.  I do not think I
should have to inconvience someone else who has also had a very long
day to take an extra 20 minutes, so that they could walk me back to my
hotel.

I also did not have to travel on a train alone late at nite in San
Francisco. While, Glen suggested I needed a better travel agent,
AFAIK, travel agents have no control over thunderstorms in the U.S.
Midwest,  nor do they have any insight into whether someone will
encounter flight delays as a result of the weather. In hindsight of
course, I should have made plans to just spend the nite in Brussels
upon my arrival and then travel to Maastricht the next day. Or, to
just bail on my connection from London to Brussels and take the
Eurostar (and pay the exorbitant fee for a lst minute ticket and
losing my luggage since they would destroy it in Heathrow if I didn't
get on the place). [Don't even get into the discussion as to why I
checked my bag - that's another whole boatload of whining that has no
relevance to IETF meeting planning].  However, having traveled to many
places in Europe, including small towns, I've never had this sort of
problem, so was not able to anticipate such. Certainly, if I had to
travel to Maastricht again, I would be able to plan accordingly (and
would just pay the extra money and rent a car).

Best Regards,
Mary.


On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Joel Jaeggli <joelja(_at_)bogus(_dot_)com> 
wrote:

On 8/28/10 10:29 AM, Mary Barnes wrote:

So, if all you guys (and it's been all guys from what I've seen) would
just consider how you would feel if you either had access to very
little food (think 4 days without a real meal and subsisting on
illegally imported nuts and dried fruit for 4 days)  or if your
wife /daughters/girlfriends  were having to travel alone on a train
late at night or navigate a city they don't know alone at nite, then
perhaps you'll have a modicum of insight into some of these concerns.
[BTW, the information on safety on the host site were certainly not
relevant to my personal concerns].


The incidence of rape in the netherlands is about 1/3 that of the city
in which you normally live in, the homocide rate is 1/15. certain kinds
of property crime are known to be pretty high. By most measures of
personal well-being the netherlands is one of the safest countries in
the world.

You stood at least an order of magnitude higher probability of being
accosted or assulted on the street when we were situated in the
tenderlion in san franciso, so either you're a fairly bad judge of
relative risk (most humans are) or the unfamilar has produced uncessary
concerns.

As I said in prior posts, I think Maastricht would be a lovely city
for a vacation/holiday, but it is a very poor choice for a business
meeting.  And, actually the scattered nature of the hotels made if far
more difficult to interact with IETF friends than it is when the
hotels are all close to the venue and there are fewer choices.

Regards,
Mary.

On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 2:54 AM, Tschofenig, Hannes (NSN - FI/Espoo)
<hannes(_dot_)tschofenig(_at_)nsn(_dot_)com> wrote:

Hi Jordi,
Hi all,

I have not seen an IETF meeting where people have not complained about
the layout of the venue, how to get there, the city itself, the
proximity to some nearby countries, the weather, the hotel, the number
of offered hotels, the high crime rate, etc. etc.

The place that makes 95% of the typical IETF meetings participants happy
does not even exist.

Maybe it would be useful to highlight the positive aspects of traveling
instead. Maastricht is an interesting city and you saw lots of your IETF
friends again.

Ciao
Hannes
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