At 12:32 PM -0400 5/21/16, Ted Hardie wrote:
It's not only hard for those who are not in the affected class,
it's difficult for any member of that class to speak for anyone
else. That suggests that trying to have this discussion based on
the expressions of individuals of their own comfort is the wrong
way to have it. There are, after all, too many cases in which it
is not easy for the most affected to make their concerns known.
I think the other possible (and better) way to have that
discussion is to start from a set of community agreed principles,
and then to ask whether a particular venue meets those principles
or not.
A very good point. I completely agree.
At 8:14 PM +0200 5/21/16, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
Despite my full respect, sympathize and understanding of the
situation and my disagreement with the Singapore rules, I don't
think we should put on top priority having family in the meetings,
because there is the option of not bringing the family and do the
work.
This ignores the difference between a personal preference/choice and
a legal requirement. To me, this is a big difference.
At 8:14 PM +0200 5/21/16, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
What about announcing venues and cancelling because whatever circumstances?
I think this trivializes the issue.
At 10:29 AM -0800 5/21/16, Melinda Shore wrote:
Also, understand that you're asking that GLBT people accept
different conditions for participating in an IETF meeting. I
strongly agree that our top priority is, and has to remain,
getting work done. But, for better or for worse, a lot of
participants bring their family members, and there are some
basic questions here about equal and unequal treatment, aside
from the potential safety issues.
Exactly.
At 11:48 AM -0800 5/21/16, Melinda Shore wrote:
I think if you look through past posts, you'd be hard-pressed
to find anybody who's been more of an advocate for venue selection
based on ability to support work than I have been. I've also been
very clear that I don't think that under our current set of
conditions there's really anything to prevent us meeting in
Singapore, which is truly unfortunate because there is absolutely
no question that Singapore criminalizes relationships between men.
Laws establishing this have been upheld by their highest court less
than two years ago.
I agree. Melinda is not a member of the "IETF as junket" crowd.
Singapore is a special case.
At 4:13 PM -0400 5/21/16, John C Klensin wrote:
Let me turn that around, in part because you included "people
who want to bring their families" on your list of priorities.
From my perspective, it is important to consider, not only
"fully respecting" individual situations, but to set the
priorities in meeting site selection carefully, make sure those
priorities have community consent (rather than being decided on
privately by the IAD, IAOC, or Meetings Committee), and then
follow them and their implications.
Indeed. We need to stop making the same mistakes, and stop making
ever more egregious versions of the same mistake.
At 4:13 PM -0400 5/21/16, John C Klensin wrote:
In particular, "nice place to bring family or companion(s)" is
either a selection criterion or it isn't.
I don't know if "nice" is the right word, but I agree with what I
think John is saying. To me, "nice" means something that excludes,
say, Minneapolis in the winter, and I think the issue with Singapore
is much more serious, since it's a violation of law.
At 11:43 PM +0200 5/21/16, Michal Krsek wrote:
I have a friend of mine who is in relationship with other man. They
went to Singapore for business reason about a year ago. They felt
safer than in Dallas (being there also for business about three
years ago) - I just verified this findings over e-mail.
All venues have their own issues (including those in the US).
Your friend chose to ignore the law in Singapore. That's fine for
him, but are we really prepared to force people to make this choice?
Sure, all venues have their issues, but saying so is an excuse for
ignoring fundamental issues of equality and national law; it
trivializes the issue with Singapore, and sets us up to make the same
error again and again.
At 12:04 AM -0400 5/22/16, Ted Hardie wrote:
I am sorry that this was not clear, but it is about participation.
If a child is of an age or in circumstances where both parents are
needed, then holding a meeting where both parents cannot be present
or cannot be recognized as parents excludes the IETFer(s) in the
group from participating.
This has been the circumstance for me in the past, and it is the
reason I missed one of the meetings when I was an AD.
This is a nice, specific example of the point that started this
particular thread that it is hard for those who are not members of an
affected class to understand the issues faced by members, and Ted's
point that it is also hard for any member of the affected class to
speak for all members.
At 12:04 AM -0400 5/22/16, Ted Hardie wrote:
I think the diversity principle is not "hold meetings in different
places", which would put a premium on novelty, but on "hold
meetings so that the disadvantages of travel are equally
distributed". It may well be that only a small number of places
meet our bar for inclusiveness, and that we shuttle among them. As
long as that shuttling still spreads the disadvantages of travel
equally, we meet the goal.
I agree.
At 12:30 AM -0400 5/22/16, Ted Hardie wrote:
To be blunt: the availability of the right to assemble is no
evidence of a lack of animus by the state.
Indeed so.
--
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Surstrommingspremier (SEUR-stomins-prem-ya; Swedish; noun): The
first day of the year when it is acceptable eat Surstromming,
extremely foul-smelling fermented herring (banned in some apartment
complexes, airplanes, etc.) -- literally, "sour fish premier."