Re: 6tsch BoF

Hi Ralph,
At 01:50 01-08-2013, Ralph Droms wrote:
> Toward the end of the BoF, the chairs asked the question "1. Is this 
> a topic that the IETF should address?"  First, the chairs asked for 
> a hum.  From my vantage point (middle of the room), the hum was 
> pretty close to equal, for/against.  I reviewed the audio 
> (http://www.ietf.org/audio/ietf87/ietf87-bellevue-20130730-1520-pm2.mp3, 
> starting about 1:22), and heard a slightly louder hum "for".  The 
> BoF chairs decided they needed more information than they could 
> extract from the hum, so they asked for a show of hands.  From the 
> audio record, there were "a lot" for (which matches my recollection) 
> and "a handful" against (my memory is that no hands showed 
> against).  There was a request to ask for a show of hands for "how 
> many don't know".  The question was asked, and the record shows "a dozen".
Switching from hums to votes is not a good idea.  The above could be because:

  (a) The question asked was incorrect.

  (b) The choices provided were incorrect.

> So, there was apparently a complete change in the answer to the 
> question based on humming versus voting.  There may also have been 
> some effect from asking, after the fact, for a show of hands for "don't know".
> I'm really curious about the results, which indicate that, at least 
> in this case, the response to the question is heavily dependent on 
> the on the mode used to obtain the answers to the question (which we 
> all know is possible).  In particular, the effect of humming versus 
> show of hands was pretty obvious.  draft-resnick-on-consensus gives 
> several reasons why humming is preferred over a show of hands.  From 
> this example, it seems to me to be worth considering whether a more 
> honest and accurate result is obtained through humming rather than a 
> show of hands.
Your message does not provide enough context.  The simple explanation 
is that the vote was used to change the answer.  Consensus is a 
process, i.e. there are steps which are carefully followed until 
everyone is okay with the choices which they are provided with.  In 
case of doubt, hum.
> The other question raised in my mind is why the initial result from 
> the hum, which did not have a consensus either way, was not 
> sufficient.  "Roughly the same response" for/against the question 
> would seem to me to be as valid a result as explicit consensus one 
> way or the other, and the act of taking a show of hands to survey 
> the appeared to treat the hum as irrelevant, rather than highly significant.
The first result was sufficient.  A second try, whether it is a hum 
or a vote, creates an appearance that the decision-maker did not like 
the result and is trying to change it.  A decision can be undermined 
by people conforming to what other people in the group think.
Regards,
-sm