ietf
[Top] [All Lists]

Re: Concerns about Singapore

2016-04-09 10:53:41
My few pesos worth on this topic.

The website link provided also identifies 13 US states ‎where such laws still 
exists on the books and although due to a 2003 Supreme Court decision people 
are no longer prosecuted for violations there have according to the site still 
been arrests under these laws.

Two of the state's listed (Florida and Texas) were locations for 2 of the last 
3 IETF meetings hosted in the USA.

‎Are we now saying that these13 US States are also now off the list of possible 
locations even though we have had several meetings in some of these states 
without any issues?

‎I think as a basic  principle we should ensure that meeting locations are 
accessible to all the community and no one should be denied attendance because 
of who they are, their race,  orientation, religion, politics  or where they 
are from etc.

It is however a little different if the location's  laws bar certain personal 
activities including for example what substances you ingest that may be legal 
in some places and not others or different laws regarding the public use of 
tobacco as well as other more  personal activities, including what age you need 
to be to do so legally. ‎I don't think it is entirely unreasonable for people 
to abstain for 6 days from personal activities legal in their own country that 
may be against local laws in order to attend an IETF meeting regardless of how 
unreasonable or obnoxious  those laws may be to us.

I think we need to accept that different places in the world have different 
cultures and different laws and so long as those laws don't actually prevent 
you entering the country or obtaining suitable accommodation or cause you to 
have  to lie in order to do so or significantly affect your personal safety 
these shouldn't completely rule out a location although they may be a 
consideration when evaluating between locations .

Having been to Singapore once before I am certain there are no room police 
patrolling the hotel corridors trying to ascertain what activities the guests 
are up to in their own rooms. There were also no personal questions asked at 
hotel registration as far as I recall ( I am sure I would have remembered that) 
so I don't see it as an especially hostile environment.‎ I think the IETF 
should confirm with the meeting hotels that there will be no issues in that 
regard and also a check with the Singapore authorities that there will be no 
threat to IETF participants because of their orientation or marital status 
would be a sensible measure.

I understand that certain laws and cultural ‎attitudes in some places may make 
some feel uncomfortable. As a British citizen seeing Malvinas Son Arentinas 
posters all over Buenos Aires was not the most welcome sight to me and to a 
degree offends some of my particular sensibilities and if I walked around Plaza 
de Mayo wearing a union jack t- shirt I think I might get a hostile reaction 
but that doesn't mean Argentina should be off limits to IETF. When visiting 
another country you are a guest there and you need to be willing to conform 
your public behavior in order to not offend the hosts and not violate local 
laws and that you may have to accept that you may not always have the same 
freedoms you enjoy at home. When in Rome.....

I don't think the IETF should boycott locations just because the community 
doesn't like some of the laws of that country or aspects of that countries 
governments policies‎.  That is a very slippery slope that could significantly 
reduce the number of possible meeting locations and also distract from the IETF 
mission.

I think the hard and fast criteria should be is the location  in practice open 
for every‎body to attend and will the attendees be reasonably safe there.

Andrew

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
From: David Conrad
Sent: Thursday, April 7, 2016 17:20
To: Dhruv Dhody
Cc: ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org Discussion
Subject: Re: Concerns about Singapore


​No, I meant that IETF would be doing a disservice to a large part of the world 
(that has on its books these laws).

For reference:

http://76crimes.com/76-countries-where-homosexuality-is-illegal/

(haven't verified, but I read it on the Internet so it must be true)

Regards,
-drc















<Prev in Thread] Current Thread [Next in Thread>