Re[2]: Lawsuits, angry business users, and SPF stupidity.

Hi Wechsler,

At least *try* to understand my point if you're going to call me a
"ranter".  Go back and read what I said again, and try to put yourself
in the shoes of a business email user instead of someone who doesn't
treat email as a serious tool.

Your SPF idea is something that ISPs *are* going to use to block
emails without sender and recipient permission - you can avoid the
blame if you want, but it's *you* that is arming them with more tools
to destroy the usefulness of email.  And you know perfectly well that
SMTP level blocking is going to be either "on" or "off" for 90%+ of
ISPs that implement it, so users will not get a choice to avoid this.

You should be working on a standard that USERS can ALWAYS opt out of.

You wrote "SPF was initially proposed by a remailer service."... well,
go on then: explain to me step-by-step how this "remailer service" is
going to allow me to send my email from my hotmail.com address to
someone whos ISP uses SPF?   Oh yes - and in case it needed saying,
lets pretend that Microsoft refuse to list your remaillers IP address
in any of their DNS servers...

Kind Regards,
Chris Drake


Tuesday, January 13, 2004, 11:13:10 PM, you wrote:

W> Chris Drake wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I hate spam, but just like 99% of all other business email users, I
> > can *never* afford to loose even as much as *one* email - EVER.
W> Oh dear oh dear. Never let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

> > I strongly object to you guys forcing my ISP to trash my incoming
> > email without my permission.  I VERY strongly object to you guys
> > forcing my recipients ISP to trash my incoming emails without my
> > permission.
W> We're not forcing anyone to do anything, nor do we wish to.
W> However many times you say it.

> > What advice are you giving to people implementing SPF as to their
> > legal risk when they trash legitimate customer emails?
W> Every responsible ISP already has a legal policy on spam management. It 
W> is not our job to teach them that.

> > As publishers of software and standards which perform criminal+illegal
> > activities, and immoral purpose
W> That's an astoundingly subjective viewpoint.

W>  > (erasing emails without sender or
> > recipient consent), what do you believe your own legal risk to be?
W> Significantly less than the proven risk of black-hole providers or 
W> mail-management service providers; ie, none - because *we* do nothing to 
W> your email. What your ISP does to mail with open standards is their call 
W> entirely.

W> You might as well threaten to sue Belkin for manufacturing the keyboard 
W> that some cracker uses when breaking into a site.

> > Finally, I run a (pay only, non-spam) personal remailler service which
> > legitimately maintains the real senders address (and due to MDN/DSN
> > standards, must maintain it in the envelope as well as other areas).
W> SPF was initially proposed by a remailer service.

> > You SPF idea has the potential to (A) Destroy my legitimate business,
> > along with everyone else who operates anything similar, and (B) Puts
> > me at legal risk due to my customer emails not reaching their intended
> > recipients due to your SPF foolishness.  Should I ever get sued, I will
> > be forced to try and recover costs from someplace - either the
> > recipient ISP, or the SPF software authors (the latter being the most
> > likely, since the ISP will hide behind that excuse or risk criminal
> > prosecution as well).
W> This has to be the least scary attempt at legal scare tactics I've ever 
W> seen. The responsibility for email delivery is established to lie with 
W> the ISP, and many of them already implement anti-spam measures.

W> The rest of your email I shall ignore, as there is no prize for "most 
W> incorrent assertions in an email" on this list.

W>         Wechsler

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